प्रजा अधीन राजा समूह | Right to Recall Group

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11
PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2011 3:29 pm 
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19)We already have the system to handle complaint and grievances of public and in the last court but the problem is lack of awareness of the citizens.

The diagnosis is very wrong. You are blaming victims. Essentially, you say that "victims lack awareness and so problems exist". This is like saying that women get raped and reason is lack of awareness in women, and so women are guilty. I strongly oppose these "blame the victim" logic. The reason why courts etc have failed is rampant corruption in judges and rampant nepotism in judges. We see that Supreme Court Chief justice Khare gave bail to convicted pedophiles and enabled them to escape out of India. And we saw that Justice Ahmedi reduced charges against accused in Bhopal cases. These cases are NOT due to lack of awareness as you say, but only due to rampant bribery in Honorable Supreme Court Justices. And the judges are rampantly taking bribes because we citizens dont have procedures to expel judges and we citizens dont have procedures to execute judges using majority vote. I have proposed 100% Constitutionally valid procedures using which we citizens can expel, imprison or even execute (corrupt) Ministers, IAS, IPS and judges using majority vote . Now question is how can these procedures be enacted? CITIZENS VOICE is easy tool to get these procedures enacted. Thats where power of CITIZENS VOICE is. CITIZENS VOICE is a tool to get several laws enacted.

20)Who will communicates these numerous issues, complaint etc to the general public and for it from where the fund will come ?

Those who want to communicate will communicate. eg when one contests election, the burden of ensuring that people get copy of his manifesto is on him, not on the Govt.


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12
PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2011 3:38 pm 
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21)There is no meaning to do so much effort if it is not binding.

If 50 cr citizens register YES on a draft, and if PM decides not sign that draft and not to resign, that it will be the last PM who takes such decision. The resulting events will ensure that no PM in future will defy citizens. eg in 1650 British King defied Parliament which represented only 4% of citizens. Due to events which followed, no King in UK has dared to defy Parliament since then.

The word "may" is ensure that the clauses are constitutionally valid !! It is to ensure that Constitution-bhagats, who might claim that proposed law is unconstitutional, can be easily asked to shut up. Otherwise, the words "37 cr " carry a force more potent than nukes.

Basically, I have figured out a way of establishing increasing democractic-ness in India without any change in any law and any change in Constitution. And that way is to draft the phrase as "if over 37 cr voters approve then officer may or need not ....". Hell, if 37 cr voters approve, the officer in clause will obey , or else the next officer who will take the place of the deceased one will obey. I wont worry about possibility of officer such as PM not obeying 37 cr citizens. I would let him worry about it. All in all, possibility that MPs will use "may" against wish of 37 cr commons is academic=useless in nature.


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13
PostPosted: Mon Feb 14, 2011 7:17 pm 
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KMoksha,

Pls create following SEPARATE threads

1. FAQs on proposed CV-law-draft
2. FAQs on proposed Right to Recall District Education Officer law-draft
3. FAQs on proposed Right to Recall PM law-draft
4. FAQs on proposed Right to Recall Reserve Bank of India Governor law-draft
5. FAQs on proposed Right to Recall District Police Chief law-draft
6. FAQs on proposed Right to Recall CM law-draft
7. FAQs on proposed MRCM law-draft

The FAQs on each law-draft should be as separate as possible,


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14
PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2011 9:41 pm 
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Some clarifications on RTR-Lokpal

First proposal is Citizen's Voice aka RTI2



First, the KEY proposal is not RTR-Lokpal but allowing citizens to post affidavits on Lokpal's website by visiting DC's office and paying Rs 20 fee to clerk. So that he doesnt need to send a registered AD to Lokpal. The issue is not cost of registered AD, but it is common experience in corruption related cases that some key papers that were sent in cover disappear. A citizen still may send sealed cover if he doesnt want his complaint to come in public. But the draft MUST have option by which citizen can go to DC's office and ask DC's clerk to scan and upload the complaint on Lokpal's website.



Next , why do I request procedure by which citizen can visit Talati's office and add his name? Say 1 lakh people who have no voice in media want to put a complaint. Now if all one lakh have to go to DC's office, it is law-order nightmare. Hence the second clause, which says that "allow person to visit Talati's office (Talati = Patwari), and add his name on a a complaint filed before for Rs 3 fee". This saves money to citizen and also saves a lot of headache to system.



The exact draft of RTI2 aka CV is at www.righttorecall.info.com/002.pdf



====



Next, I would clarify on proposed RTR-Lokpal clauses



The proposed RTR-Lokpal doesnt cancel the proposed procedures of selection and removal in existing JL-draft (section-6 and section-7) by which SCjs can expel Lokpal. i.e. proposed RTR-Lokpal-clauses are only addition and ask for no deletions. Now whether 37 cr citizens agree on alternative candidate for Lokpal or not depends MAINLY on how good or bad existing Lokpal is.



If existing Lokpal is good (or bad within bad but within limits), citizens wont bother. If existing Lokpal is terrible, they will start looking for alternative. Now in approval system, where each can approve at most 5 (or more), approval for one good candidate doesn`t negate approval for other good candidates. Please note.


And quite frankly, what exactly is the issue? If citizens don`t have consensus on next change, then next change wont happen. That is natural. The issue is what if citizens DO have consesus? eg many of us are diverse, but many of us do think that NaMo would make a good Lokpal. So I dont think that consesus will always be absent. And if it is there - then also we shouldnt let alternative take over?



And please make up mind. On one hand some say -- rich will be able to create consesus by buying voters and next we hear that there will never be consesus. As far as I think, rich can`t buy votes in proposed RTR procedure because citizen has option of changing approval. So rich will have to pay Rs 100 to 35 cr voters everyday and it is not viable even if all rich of India come togather. So money buying voters is out of question.



And finally, my proposal says : if IAC cant agree with RTR-Lokpal-Chairperson, then please put RTR-Lokpal-member on just TWO members other than Chairman. Now if two of 10 member are bad, and rest 8 are supposedly good, then no damage can happen.


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15
PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2011 12:32 am 
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22)"those issues where interests of the people clash with the interests of the nation "
A-I have not come across even one hypothetical law-draft which people at large will support and it goes against interest of nation. After all, nation is people. Can you cite a law-draft which you think 52% will register YES and goes against interest of nation? Why would citizens under-pay officers? If so how many employers offer Rs 0 salary to employees? Why not? Because every employer knows than no one can work for below market rates.

23) What is difference between`Citizens voice` (RTI2) Transparent Complaint Procedure and referendum ?
`Citizens voice`(RTI 2)Transparent Complaint procedure is far far superior than "referendum". RTI2 is far less prone to rigging. In RTI2, voter can go any day, in referendum he has only one day. And cost of referendum will be at least Rs 10 per to Rs 30 per voter (existing cost of election) where as in RTI2 it is Rs 3 per voter.

24)Do you know what is the literacy in US and how much is in India?

Above is a senseless question asked 10s of time. The recall procedures in US have been in since 1830s when literacy was below 5% in voters. In most US states, even as late as 1900s, most US voters had low literacy and awareness. The recall works on trivial principles --- commons tolerate minor irregularities (like police chief taking bribes from some gambling den) and react furiously against major crime 9like police chief supporting career criminal). And so despite low literacy in past, recall ensured low corruption police chiefs throughout US history.

The citizens will approve some alternate candidate ONLY if and when

1. Existing PM is utterly hopeless (eg MMS, Deshmukh, Mayawati,
2. Alternative is far far superior (no existing neta for that matter)

And most people will approve someone who has proved himself as district/state level. E.g. Majority of UPites know that Mayawati is corrupt and should be expelled ASAP. If they had replacement procedures, most UPites would approve some IAS, IPS or Mayor who has proved himself at District level.


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16
PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2011 12:51 am 
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25) How can the fee of adding the name to the complaint at the Patwari office , Rs. 3 cover all operational and salary costs ?

What is the cost of RTR procedures ?

I can show that salary of the clerk, the cost of the PC, cost of server, cost of bandwidth etc everything is feasible. One clerk can register about 200-300 YES/NO. So that would fetch Rs 600 to Rs 900. A clerk needs no more salary than Rs 150 to rs 300 a day. The servers are available for free up to 100 MB data and cost as low as Rs 1000 per month for 200 GB data. The PCs are Rs 25000 a piece with OS cost and will be covered in few days. So startup cost is low, and as number of YES/NO increases it would increase but would get covered by Rs 3 fee.

The expense on Govt is ZERO. Yes, zero. And each person who wants to a change has to give Rs 3 fee and when secure SMS protocol comes (which can come today if TRAI signs a paper), cost reduces to below 1 paise per citizen !!
And how much would RTR cost? Rs 200 cr withour secure SMS and barely Rs 3 cr when secure SMS comes. Is that too much a cost in YOUR opinion?


26) What if the contents of the complaint are defamatory ?
A-
ANY affidavits can be placed, and if the contents are defamatory etc, the postor shall pay dearly(when sued) and the affidavit will be taken down.Any court of law can order the removal of the affidavit. And later, one can add laws that would suspend his posting rights for several years. Same as media --- media can print anything, and it is liable for what it prints. But no can in general can stop a mediamen from printing pre-facto(before the fact is committed).

27) How will the complaint spread and how much time it will take to spread ?
It depends on how beneficial the complaint/proposal is to the common people and masses. A complaint which is of lakhs of people like Beating of sleeping people at Ramlila maidan on June 4,2011 if filed with demand of removal of police commissioner will spread like fire and lakhs of people will come to add their names at patwari office.

Now internet is available to about 4% to 5% of population of India. Say 5 crores of 116 crores commons have internet. Out of these 5 crores, some 4.90 crores are kind of people, who would oppose even giving 1% of PM's servers' diskspace to commons. But some 10 lakh people in these 5 crores do care for commons. So when these 10 lakh well to do people with internet see a pro-common affidavit on web, they will try to propagate it using (i)pamphlets (ii)word of mouth (iii)newspaper ad, and thus the information will reach 5 crore to 10 crore of commons. And if the affidavit has pro-common points, then these 5 crore commons will spread the information to remaining 110 crore commons. So publicity route for pro-common affidavit is : PM's website -> 10 lakh pro-common in from top 5cr of India -> pamphlets, meetings, word of mouth -> 5 crore commons -> word of mouth -> 100 cr commons.

So the process is not restricted to those who have internet. And even if he has internet, no one can read 100s of affidavits that would come in a day. So eventually, the process is run by word of mouth only aided by pamphlets etc


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17
PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2011 12:54 am 
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28) Will language not be a barrier for spreading of the complaint/proposal ?
This language issue is not a flaw of the proposal. It is because India is multi lingual. And PM/CMs etc are always free to put official translation of the affidavits, which they need not do for each affidavits but can do when an affidavit gets a threshold of say 1% . And this is not a law making system, where translation would be of paramount importance. This is opinion gathering system only.

29)So a citizen would wish to change his selection almost on a regular basis.

That is purely YOUR assumption. Say there are 10cr single women of age 18-45. A husband has right to divorce his wife and marry any of these 10cr women. So do you husbands change spouse everyday?NO.

A person is free to change job any day. So does he change everyday?

30)Your procedure does not ensure privacy of voting - this can have serious negative repurcussions for voters in light of the feudal system still prevalent in pockets of India. What do you have to say to this?

What is secret these days? You credit card statement is know to Govt. Your bank statement is know to Govt. When you file complaint in police, courts etcall names are disclosed. If nothing happens after all these information being... public or semi-public, what can publishing approvals do?

In some of procedures I have proposed at local level, such replacement of District Police Chief, confidentiality is there. In the replacement procedures I proposed for PM, CM replacement, there is NO confidentiality. I have also drafted a confidential version - the cost is higher but cost on govt and voter is zero, I will later post it here. But does lack confidentiality do any harm when replacing PM? No, it does not.

1. In the procedure I proposed, replacement will happen if over 24 cr citizens have approved a person. To force 24 cr citizens, an Army of 10,00,00 and police of 15,00,000 will fall short. And policemen and soldiers are not going to agree to do this. So the leader would need about 50,00,000 private criminals to force 24 cr citizens. No one in world can create a gang of even 5000 criminals. When gang size reaches that high, the person has to become pro-citizen, and cant afford to be anti-citizen. In case you have noticed, the criminals try to victimize new-rich and only a handful of commons, the criminals never dare to victimize established rich or a large number of commons --- it simply does not work out. So the fear that someone will manage to force even 1 cr voters, forget 24 cr voters, is too unrealistic.

2. The citizens can file/cancel approvals any day. So the gangleader will have to put gangmen around Talati's office everyday. Election comes once in 5 years. So you may put 2-5 gang men at booth for a day, But putting gangmen to stop EVERYDAY is not viable. Also, in later versions of the procedure, the person can file his approval at Talati's office, Tahsil office, Collector's office, Post Offices. No gang leader is strong enough to block citizens from visiting all these places throughout the year.

3. The feudal system you mentions will fall apart when a 2% to 4% wealth tax on land above 5 acre per family members comes and an inheritance tax of 35% over Rs 1 cr comes. Next, when citizens get procedures to expel District Police Chief (which is confidential) and SC-Cj, HC-Cj, District Chief judges etc, these officials will have no options but to beat the cr1p out of criminals. So all these feudal lords will vanish within 3 months after recall procedures arrive.

4. And finally, please note that the procedures I have proposed become law via FIRST proposed law aka Citizens Voice-`Transparent Complaint/Proposal procedure` law. So if people think that open voting is bad, then `Transparent Complaint/Proposal procedure` law will ensure that open voting based procedure to replace PM will not get enacted and instead the procedure which uses confidential voting might come. IOW, my point is, the MTMT law is filter against all "bad" proposals.


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18
PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2011 1:24 am 
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31) What if the public website used for Transparent Complaint procedure and right to recall procedures such as PM website is hacked?
The website will be the most protected website, stronger than of any bank. If a hacker can hack this website, he will have to hack crores of accounts and the risk is lot in this case and benefit not much. Such hacker would rather hack some bank website where risk to be caught is less and gains much more.
Please see the procedure. the hacker changes the code or whatever, this website will be watched by crores of people. Say in RTR-PM , the approvals for say ,Swami ji as PM are cancelled, then the supporters of Swami Ramdev will come to know ...by net ( and later by SMS, passbooks, etc) that their approval status is changed. And other people can also see such drastic change in support and the hacker will be most probably be caught. Since this website is visible to crores of people. So, this risk is not worth it for the hacker. He would rather hack a bank website where the number of people watching that site are less and so chances of getting caught is less and gains much more. And say the hacker cancels the approval of Swami ji , even then the supporters of Swami ji can renew their approvals, so all efforts of hacker goes waste. No hacker is that stupid to hack with this safeguard`Any citizen can change/cancel their approvals any day.`

Another thing is that there will be sufficient backup on three-four servers, at the time the complaint is given to collector or YES/NO given at patwari office.
So, the hacker will be frustrated as there will be not ANY loss of data if there is proper backup, which will be likely the case.

Approval filing is safer that bank transaction : Not just the person walks to Talati’s office to file approval, he gets SMS feedback similar to credit card usage and the equipment will take his pix and finger print. Of course, on day-one, these features wont be available, but any Collector can implement them in 3 to 6 months or else citizens should demand his expulsion. With picture, finger print and SMS feedback, the system is safer than bank transaction. If someone can hack this system, he will rather hack a backing system.
32 ) In the right to recall procedures such as RTR-PM etc, will the citizens not give approvals on caste lines?
A- It is false propaganda that common man votes on casteist and religious lines , e.g. Mayawati got votes of Brahmins.
Secondly, Castes are further split into sub-castes. If anyone tries to woo a particular caste or sub-caste, he/she will end up not be chosen since the numbers of subcaste/caste are not enough for the candidate to become PM, etc. and other castes may not vote for him/her as the candidate will be labelled as pro a particular caste.

33) Can not these procedures be influenced by media or goons ?

NO. Because there is a safeguard that` Any voter can change his/her approval or Yes/No by going to the patwari office and giving Rs.3`.
These procedures will override the media`s influence as they themselves are a alternate media giving verifiable and always visible information about the complaint, candidates for PM etc and their supporters. The people will rely more on the complaint supported by lakhs of people rather than any media reports.
And any media or goons used as a influence cost money and their use cannot be continued for long. As soon as their influence finishes, the person even if influenced by them, will be able to change his/her approval and all the effort to influence via media or goons will go to waste.
In RTR-Lokpal (or almost any RTR procedures I have proposed), the citizen can file/change approval by paying Rs 3 fee at Patwari officer any day. So one would need goons everyday . And to stop 37 crore people or even 5 cr people, one needs lakhs or goons. No one has so many goons, and no one can hire so many goons for days and weeks. Even if PM manages to use entire police force of 15,00,000 , he will not be able to stop so many commons.


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19
PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2011 8:24 am 
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34) Why we need RTR procedures on posts not elected by citizen-voters of India like Lokpal, PM, Reserve Bank Governor of India, District Education Officer, District Police Commissioner, Supreme Court Chief Justice etc. Will Right to recall work with lower positions ?
A- We need Right to recall over all postitions which have discretionary powers and which have authority over at least one lakh voters. Lower positions have less discretionary power and the authority can influence less number of citizens . Therefore for lower positions, jury sytem (randomly selected people from district, state etc give judgements) is more beneficial.
The purpose of RTR procedure is to make the post accountable DIRECTLY to the people. A authority is accountable to that person who has the power to remove the authority.If the authority is accountable to a regulator like super-lokpal or super-super lokpal, MNCs can buy out both the lokpal and the super-lokpal or even the super-super lokpal because they are few in number but the MNCs cannot buy out or influence crores of common people. Thus, the RTR will act as a deterrent in 99% of the cases when RTR procedures are in place and in 1% of the cases, the corrupt person will be replaced by a honest person.

35) We need better electoral reforms like 100 % voting, None of the above(to reject all candidates) instead of Right to recall procedures. We need elections to chose good people who will bring about these reforms.
A- M.N. Roy, the first person who wrote constitution of India called `Draft Constitution of India` in 1946 said that" Without recall over legislators, elections will be useless." And even Rajiv Dixit ji said "First Right to recall ,then Elections" If there is no right to recall over the netas, we , the common people cannot remove the neta when they become corrupt.But if we have a procedure to anytime remove/replace the corrupt, then this will serve as a `hanging sword` over the neta and the neta will do their job better rather than indulge in corruption. But without recall procedures, 99% of the authorities become corrupt after getting power. And God did not put stamps on people`s foreheads that they can know the 1% who will not become corrupt. Therefore, `First Right to recall, then Elections`.
`None of the above` option at the time of elections gives power to reject a candidate to the voter only at the time of elections. But after the elections, the authority will not be accountable to the masses and will work against the interests of the public.
`100 % compulsory voting` is useless without the authorities like police and judges accountable to the public and even can be harmful. The corrupt judges and police can misuse this law to blackmail and take bribes from those persons who due to some circumstances cannot vote.
While if the RTR procedures are in place , RTR will act as a deterrent against corruption in 99% of the cases and in 1% of the cases, the corrupt will be replaced by the honest. In this way, with full rights , the people will also take more interest in voting and country affairs since they know they have the power to replace the corrupt.
At present, many people show lack of interest in country affairs as they have to chose the bad from the worse. The corrupt judges and police give protection to the goondas, who prevent and discourage honest people from entering politics, but with RTR-supreme court chief justice and RTR- police commissioner in place, the goondas will not be protected by the judges and police , so honest people will enter politics or will be bought by the public via recall procedures. Thus , the voting percentage will also increase naturally once recall procedures are in place.
------
The one pattern which is always seen and never an exception is : an official behaves well only if citizens have procedures to expel/imprison him. If commons have no procedure to expel/imprison him, no matter how is chosen --- direct election, indirect election, written exam etc --- he is always corrupt.

One example is ancient Greece , where many officials were appointed by lottery !! And yet corrupt was low, because a complaint of corruption was decided up on a Jury of 200, 400 or 600 citizens depending on level of the accused (wealthier and powerfuler the accused, more the number of Jurors). This Jury had powers to expel him as well as execute him. So officers in Greece behaved well, and complaint of corruption was low. Whereas in India, we have 10s of checks and balances, and 10s of institutions , 10s of safe guards, 10s of audits and 10s of disclosures. But no procedure by which citizens can expel/punish officers. And so almost all officers we see are corrupt.


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20
PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2011 9:56 pm 
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36) We need electoral reforms like 100% voting and negative voting first and do not need recall procedures at present .

A- The procedures of negative voting is effective only at the time of elections. The candidate which is `honest` or has a honest image sells out after the elections. And the commons have no control over the authority for five years. Moreover , in case of judges , PM,CM which are not elected, the commons have no control over them what so ever.
That is why we need procedures by which the authorities are accountable to the citizens at all times.
Moreover, making a law for 100% compulsory voting and imposing fine for those who did not vote will lead to misuse of this law by the police/judges who can blackmail and take bribes from those who for some compulsion cannot vote like being away from home, etc.
Today, many people do not vote as due to bad elements in politics being promoted and promoted by corrupt police, judges and politicians , which prevent good people from entering politics.
But when the recall procedures proposed by us is implemented, the interest of the common man will increase and the election voting percentage will also increase.
And with recall procedures coming over judges, police and politicians will ensure that the bad elements are no longer protected , leading to reduction of bad elements in politics and entry of good people into politics. This will increase interest of voters and lead to more voting percentage.

37) What is meaning of term `may`? What is the meaning of `PM may resign`?

The word "may" is ensure that the clauses are constitutionally valid !! It is to ensure that Constitution-bhagats, who might claim that proposed law is unconstitutional, can be easily asked to shut up. Otherwise, the words "37 cr " carry a force more potent than nukes.
Basically, I have figured out a way of establishing increasing democractic-ness in India without any change in any law and any change in Constitution. And that way is to draft the phrase as "if over 37 cr voters approve then officer may or need not ....". Hell, if 37 cr voters approve, the officer in clause will obey , or else the next officer who will take the place of the deceased one will obey. I wont worry about possibility of officer such as PM not obeying 37 cr citizens. I would let him worry about it. All in all, possibility that MPs will use "may" against wish of 37 cr commons is academic=useless in nature.
------
Some people may see `PM may resign` as a pressure tactic of the PM.

38) How can the citizens threaten/force the PM/CM etc to sign Citizens voice-`Transparent Complaint/Proposal procedure` Gazette Notification?

Should a common request PM etc or should a common threaten them within legal limits. Depends on citizen's view on PM/CM/etc. If a common believes that PM etc are honest people, he should request. If citizen believes that PM etc are dishonest people, he should threaten them within legal limits. And if a citizen thinks that PM is dishonest, CM is honest, Mayor is dishonest etc, then should threaten PM, request CM, threaten Mayor etc. How to threaten PM etc within legal limits? It can be
a. I will not vote for your party
b. I will take rally against you
c. I will gherao PMO or your party's offices
d. I will insult you in public within legal limits
e. I will call you 'gali gali mein shor hai' in public rally
f. "I will appeal to Bhagat Singh type committed young men to join me against you"
and so forth.
39) After the Citizens Voice-`Transparent Complaint/Proposal Procedure(RTI2)`comes, there will be complaints of crores of people which will put burden on the system ?

If you are talking about post-RTI2 world, then how will crores of affidavits do damage? Rs 20 is charged per page and will cover all the costs including salaries. Scanning one page will take say 100 kb. Say 1 cr affidavit-pages are filed. That takes 1,00,00,000 * 100 kb = 1000,000 MB = 10000 GB = 10 TB = Rs 60,000 of disk space. And revenue for scanning 1 cr proposals is Rs 20 cr. Add salary costs etc and still RTI2 draft is not causing any loss to GoI. And how will submitting 10 cr proposals hurt anyone in India?
It is not binding for the authorities to attend to each and every complaint or even any complaint as this is a opinion-gathering system. But the authorities cannot afford to ignore the complaint which is of lakhs of people.

40) Why do we not use private website for putting public complaints in the manner as Transparent Complaint Procedure?


As per setting "private website for public complaints", it has no value. No one will have faith in what my website says. eg I can post an affidavit saying "Hang corrupt MMS", and in two months say 5 crore citizens register YES. Then would you agree that I didnt fake the numbers? If I am running private-RTI2 website, you will call me fake-fraud. If you run private-RTI2 website I will call you fake-fraud. Next, someone will call me Congress agent, and next someone else will call you BJP agent. Govt-website is least unreliable --- please note, least unreliable, same as most reliable. In fact, all private website have near zero reliability on all political matters as owners can fake any numbers he wants. Just look at paid surveys and paid news. Given that numbers have no reliability, no one would bother registering YES/NO.


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