प्रजा अधीन राजा समूह | Right to Recall Group

अधिकार जैसे कि आम जन द्वारा भ्रष्ट को बदलने/सज़ा देने के अधिकार पर चर्चा करने के लिए मंच
It is currently Wed Jan 24, 2018 3:02 pm

All times are UTC + 5:30 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 10 posts ] 
SR. No. Author Message
1
PostPosted: Thu Nov 11, 2010 9:57 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Nov 10, 2010 2:01 am
Posts: 4
This post is just to identify the present problems of politics in our country. We will discuss the ideas to solve each of them in a separate thread at a slow and steady pace over next few months (or years).

What are the present problems of politics in India?

1. Election finance: Lots of money spent in elections which is a major source of corruption.
2. Dynastic politics: all the parties except Communists are involved in this to a shamefully high extent.
3. Lack of internal democracy in political party: ticket allocation is done at head-quarters of party rather than by the active members themselves. This lead to a mockery of democratic principles for which these parties have been created. (these parties would not have existed in monarchic system: their very existence is due to democratic principles governing modern nation states and still their internal culture is one of monarchy rather than democracy - what a shame!)
4. Attracting talented and socially-conscious people to politics. I am not talking about just educated people, but educated plus socially conscious people. Talent should be welcome, but only if it is backed by a good character. So, "how to fill our panchayats, municipalities, assemblies and parliament with talented and socially-conscious people" is the challenge which we should brainstorm on - this is tricky particularly in light of the fact that other jobs are so easy to perform (as least when compared to political reforms) and give us immediate results and satisfaction. Just take my own example. As a software engineer, I work in air-conditioned office, earn enough to lead a life of decent material comforts and get immediate results (in terms of financial rewards, career growth, personal satisfaction, etc) for all my efforts, but if I go into politics, I will be working in the scorching sun of India (right now, am in USA where weather is moderate), with no (honest) money coming from political work and facing nothing but struggle and moderate chances for electoral success in contrast to extremely high chance of success in my present field of software engineering. So, how can politics be considered attractive for intelligentsia who believe in values and morals when all that it offers is just hardships and merely moderate chances for success even after giving one's 100%? And still we all feel and know that in the interests of the society to which we owe so much and as moral obligation to great sacrifices of past greats done for our sake, we have to smoothen the hardships of political work in India in our own lifetime so that it becomes the field of intelligent and morally developed people rather than the field of idiots and crooks. But, how to achieve this? This is the problem which we have to work out in our lifetimes.
5. Factionalism. How to minimize petty ego-clashes inside the party promoting factionalism?
6. How to minimize "Power corrupts" principle in the short-term as well as the long term?
7. Lack of long-term vision for the country
8. Political instability due to hung assemblies/parliament
9. Right to recall and other measures to bring accountability in political system
10. Right to information, eGovernance and other measures to bring transparency (and accountability) in political system
11. Decentralization of political and economic power
12. Pros and cons of parliamentary versus presidential model in a diverse country like ours

Please suggest modifications to the descriptions of above problems or addition of any new problems. Once again, let me remind: "This post is just to identify the present problems of politics in our country. We will discuss the ideas to solve each of them in a separate thread at a slow and steady pace over next few months (or years)."

Thanks,
Gopal

http://gopal4mission.wordpress.com


Top
 Profile  
 
2
PostPosted: Thu Nov 11, 2010 7:17 pm 
Offline
Site Admin

Joined: Wed Nov 04, 2009 9:47 pm
Posts: 38
.

The present problem of politics is that we talk about problems and not of solutions :) .

IMO, we should talk about DRAFTS of Executive Notifications and Legislations which can reduce problems, rather than talk about problems. Any draft that reduces problems and creates less problems should be welcome. Otherwise, description of problems can only lead to endless debates and nothing more.

In my book, http://rahulmehta.com/301.pdf , I have proposed DRAFTS of Government Notifications that can reduce problems like corruption etc. Each chapter deals with 1-2 specific dept. Please take a look and let me know which draft you find worth discussing in detail.

.


Top
 Profile  
 
3
PostPosted: Fri Nov 12, 2010 9:12 pm 
Offline
Site Admin

Joined: Wed Nov 04, 2009 9:47 pm
Posts: 38
Gopal wrote:
1. Election finance: Lots of money spent in elections which is a major source of corruption.


The major source of corruption is NOT election finance, but the fact that citizens cant punish corrupt. eg How much money does one spend to become an IAS, IPS or judge. Nearly zero. Yet most of them are corrupt. Why? Because they know that they can get away. Likewise, if punishments were happening, neta too would take less bribes, and then he will spend less on elections. IOW, if position of Minister becomes less lucrative, the election expense will come down, NOT other way round. So if election finance is problem, I would say : solution is to create laws that would force Ministers to take less bribes, Which laws? I propose RTR, Execution by Majority Vote, Imprison by Majority Vote etc.


Quote:
2. Dynastic politics: all the parties except Communists are involved in this to a shamefully high extent.


A step by step comparison of India and US will show that US doesnt not have dynasty because

1. US has 35% to 45% inheritance tax : So dynasty in business elite is weak, which makes dynasty in politics weaker. Dynasty in business gives positive feedback to dynasty in politics (and vice versa).

2. US has elections at many places : City Councilor, Mayor, Deputy Mayor, District Education Officer, District Police Chief, District Public Prosecutor, District Judges, High Court judges, MLAs, Governor, Loksabha MPs, Rajya Sabha MPs, President, Vice President etc. In India, all except MLAs, MPs are appointed and not elected. Appointment increases nepotism, election reduces nepotism.

So following are procedures I propose to reduce nepotism/dynasty in India

1. Right to Recall (see chap9, chap-10 etc of http://rahulmehta.com/301.pdf )
2. Recruitment by written exams only, no interview (see chap-28 of the above book)
3. Elections of several positions, not just 3 places (see section-27.5 of above book)
4. Wealth tax (see chap-25 of above book)

This will reduce nepotism in administration, govt, businesses and also dynastic rules

Quote:
3. Lack of internal democracy in political party: ticket allocation is done at head-quarters of party rather than by the active members themselves. This lead to a mockery of democratic principles for which these parties have been created. (these parties would not have existed in monarchic system: their very existence is due to democratic principles governing modern nation states and still their internal culture is one of monarchy rather than democracy - what a shame!)


No one cares to define what he means by inner party democracy to begin with first. eg how does one define active member, and how does one become active member, and what if an active member is made inactive member and thus his voting rights are removed? Unless once defines inner party democracy, how can one have it.

Quote:
4. Attracting talented and socially-conscious people to politics. I am not talking about just educated people, but educated plus socially conscious people. Talent should be welcome, but only if it is backed by a good character. So, "how to fill our panchayats, municipalities, assemblies and parliament with talented and socially-conscious people" is the challenge which we should brainstorm on - this is tricky particularly in light of the fact that other jobs are so easy to perform (as least when compared to political reforms) and give us immediate results and satisfaction. Just take my own example. As a software engineer, I work in air-conditioned office, earn enough to lead a life of decent material comforts and get immediate results (in terms of financial rewards, career growth, personal satisfaction, etc) for all my efforts, but if I go into politics, I will be working in the scorching sun of India (right now, am in USA where weather is moderate), with no (honest) money coming from political work and facing nothing but struggle and moderate chances for electoral success in contrast to extremely high chance of success in my present field of software engineering. So, how can politics be considered attractive for intelligentsia who believe in values and morals when all that it offers is just hardships and merely moderate chances for success even after giving one's 100%? And still we all feel and know that in the interests of the society to which we owe so much and as moral obligation to great sacrifices of past greats done for our sake, we have to smoothen the hardships of political work in India in our own lifetime so that it becomes the field of intelligent and morally developed people rather than the field of idiots and crooks. But, how to achieve this? This is the problem which we have to work out in our lifetimes.


The issue is - no one knows process or prcedure which can separate people of good character from bad character. Also, what aspects are there in "goodness"? Clearly, person should be honest in dealing with money. But what about vices like alcohol and sex? Is it must that the person be free from both of these vices? Well, if that is the definition, I for sure do not have good character. (I never took liquor in my life). And AFAIK, insisting on bhramcharya or even monogamy will only create hypocrisy than bring goodness.

Furthermore, many insist that person MUST be God fearing or else he does not have good character. Well, Bhagat Singh wrote essay titled as "Why I am atheist !!"

IOW, there is too much subjectivity in what makes "good character". And no one knows process to separate good people from bad, before giving power.

Quote:
5. Factionalism. How to minimize petty ego-clashes inside the party promoting factionalism?


I know of no way. I have figured out how to reduce corruption, poverty, unemployment, weakness of Military, but I dont know how ego-clashes can be reduced. One way I think of reducing factionalism is to keep it open and create easy procedure by which one can tell which faction is more popular. This will at least make factionalism clean and tranparent.

Quote:
6. How to minimize "Power corrupts" principle in the short-term as well as the long term?


1. Right to Recall
2. Jury System
3. Narco Test by Majority Vote
4.Imprisonment by Majority Vote
5. Execution by Majority Vote

Quote:
7. Lack of long-term vision for the country


Too subjective.

Quote:
8. Political instability due to hung assemblies/parliament


The proposed procedures of RTR-PM, RTR-CM solve this problems completely.

Quote:
9. Right to recall and other measures to bring accountability in political system

We should force PM, CM etc to pass RTI2, and use RTI2 to get RTR passed.


Top
 Profile  
 
4
PostPosted: Sun Nov 14, 2010 9:05 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Nov 10, 2010 2:01 am
Posts: 4
All the ideas you mentioned are definitely important - I cannot agree more with these ideas than what I already do. Written exams and elections are definitely less prone to corruption than interviews and appointments/quotas.

There are few more things to be understood like which system of voting is better: "first past the post" followed in India or "proportionate voting" followed in USA. As I already mentioned, I have just started the task of reading, analyzing and documenting political ideas.

Regarding good character, anyone who puts society's interests above personal interests in money matters and avoiding nepotism and favoritism, can be considered worthy of being called a person of good character. Brahmacharya is something which is not practical in long term for almost everyone, though, during student life, it can be managed using yoga and caution, but managing for whole life is not for all. So, lifelong brahmacharya cannot be a criteria at all in politics. Drinking liquor, smoking etc. damages the character only if one is addicted, but then also it is subjective. Chuchill was a smoker, but he was the best leader for Britain during World War II. So, we have to accept this definition as most objective: "anyone who puts society's interests above personal interests in money matters and avoiding nepotism and favoritism, can be considered worthy of being called a person of good character. "

Regarding internal democracy in a party, I will need lots of thinking before I can ask you for your feedback. So, please hold on that.

Overall, I guess, my "Sarvodaya Mission" group will do well to ponder over your points and documents as you definitely have done lots of study, reflection and documentation whereas we are starting just now in a serious manner (so far, we were mostly focussed on developing "intellectual and spiritual self-help materials" for mass training and we are done on all important points in this domain; hence moving to political domain now).

So, what I will do is - I will share your ideas with my group and over a period of months, when we have some solid materials, I will put them in a post in this forum and then, we, two, can hold debate on merits and demerits of each of those ideas. In the long run (we will settle this issue by 2014 end - after 2014 Lok Sabha elections), if we are clear that India's long term interests lies in a new party and existing parties (including Baba Ramdev's) won't do, my group will start a party from scratch also as we walk the talk. Right now, we ourselves are doing study and reflection on these issues and ground realities of India' socio-political environments. So, thanks for being with me in these discussions. What I put in my reply is not for discussion, but for elaboration only. But, feel free to express your points, if any.

Thanks a lot,

Gopal


Top
 Profile  
 
5
PostPosted: Wed Nov 17, 2010 5:46 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Nov 17, 2010 5:13 am
Posts: 17
Gopal 2014 will be too late. Rahul is not mentioned/described about rocket science.

Once you distribute the printed or soft copy within your members, rest depends upon them (your members) to accept RTI2, RTR or Recall, MRCM or Jury.

It is not necessary that you will keep our name or contact details in documents. You can replace those with your details as well and distribute.

I have seed your blog. I believe It doesn't focus on India's major 2 problem's solution, which are (1)Poverty (2)Corruption.

I have found, in India we are only focusing on describing problem more and more, and less on solution.

The solution only in terms of Laws & Acts.

Thanks


Top
 Profile  
 
6
PostPosted: Wed Nov 17, 2010 10:28 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Nov 10, 2010 2:01 am
Posts: 4
Ashish,

You are right - so far my group focussed only on bottom-to-top approach which is "How to transform individuals in order to transform institutions?" We are done with this task (we first defined the problems and then went after solutions with utmost sincerity, most of which are explained on my blog) and have moved to top-to-bottom approach which is "How to transform institutions in order to transform individuals?" Right now, we are just defining the problems in political domain and then go after solutions one-by-one. Defining problems is already done.

Our civilization over-relied on the former, whereas the Western civilization over-relied on the latter. What is needed is a balance between the two as both approaches act and react upon each other and hence, need to be used together in a balanced manner.


Rahul Bhai & Lok Satta party founder, Jai Prakash Narayana, have done lots of work on "top-to-bottom" approach. We are studying everything on this website apart from reading from internet and books.

Right now, solutions in terms of "Laws & Acts" are just the beginning of the work. It is an important approach, but we all know about "Dowry law" which prohibits asking for dowry - and we also know how much this law has found application and perhaps, this can convince us that over-reliance on either of "top-to-bottom" or "bottom-to-top" approaches do not yield good results.

I will open threads on this forum throughout this 1-2 year long work on possible solutions to the problems of politics. As of now, need couple of weeks to have some points to discuss on any problem.

Thanks,
Gopal


Top
 Profile  
 
7
PostPosted: Thu Nov 18, 2010 8:26 am 
Offline
Site Admin

Joined: Wed Nov 04, 2009 9:47 pm
Posts: 38
Gopal wrote:
There are few more things to be understood like which system of voting is better: "first past the post" followed in India or "proportionate voting" followed in USA. As I already mentioned, I have just started the task of reading, analyzing and documenting political ideas.


US follows FPTP for President, Senators, Congressmen etc. I support preferential voting aka IRV aka Instant Run-off Voting (see section-40.11 in http://rahulmehta.com/301.pdf , see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instant-runoff_voting ). Anyway, I am less keen on changing election system for now. No matter what election system we keep, if winner knows that he cant be expelled for 5 years and citizens can imprison/execute him, over 95% are going to become corrupt.

Quote:
Regarding good character, anyone who puts society's interests above personal interests in money matters and avoiding nepotism and favoritism, can be considered worthy of being called a person of good character. Brahmacharya is something which is not practical in long term for almost everyone, though, during student life, it can be managed using yoga and caution, but managing for whole life is not for all. So, lifelong brahmacharya cannot be a criteria at all in politics. Drinking liquor, smoking etc. damages the character only if one is addicted, but then also it is subjective. Chuchill was a smoker, but he was the best leader for Britain during World War II. So, we have to accept this definition as most objective: "anyone who puts society's interests above personal interests in money matters and avoiding nepotism and favoritism, can be considered worthy of being called a person of good character.


But then, no one has blood test or written exam to know if person puts personal interest above national interest. One can test for physical conditions by blood etc tests. One can test IQ/ability by written tests. There is NO test whether person will put national interest above his interest in critical conditions, as critical conditions dont come often and cant be generated in lab or test grounds. Interviews can be faked by people good at talking and oratory is nothing but hype created by media-owners via paid-news and paid silence.

So say there is election where 10,00,000 voters have to elect one of the 10 candidates. There is no way to know who is more nationalist than the rest. Right to Recall minimizes the risk - trust one of the 10 and if he is found defunct, replace him ASAP. And 3 proposed procedures - imprisonment by majority voting, narco test in public by majority voting and execution by majority voting further reduce the possibility that leader will cheat on citizens.


Top
 Profile  
 
8
PostPosted: Thu Nov 18, 2010 9:20 am 
Offline
Site Admin

Joined: Wed Nov 04, 2009 9:47 pm
Posts: 38
Gopal wrote:
You are right - so far my group focussed only on bottom-to-top approach which is "How to transform individuals in order to transform institutions?" We are done with this task (we first defined the problems and then went after solutions with utmost sincerity, most of which are explained on my blog) and have moved to top-to-bottom approach which is "How to transform institutions in order to transform individuals?" Right now, we are just defining the problems in political domain and then go after solutions one-by-one. Defining problems is already done.


There is NO difference in moral value levels of US citizen and Indian citizen. If moral values levels were higher in US, there would have been no software and movie piracy. But software as well as movie piracy is rampant in US. In US, in 1980s millions of parents claimed fake tax exemptions for their kids they were not entitled to and it stopped only after USG started asking for social security number of kids and verification. IOW, moral values in US citizens are no better than in India. And US, Canada, West has established a good nation without making citizens more moral than citizens of India. Then saying that to improve India, we must first spend time in improving moral values of average citizens, is wasting away time, and only giving more time and opportunity to corrupt people to continue bribery.

Quote:
Rahul Bhai & Lok Satta party founder, Jai Prakash Narayana, have done lots of work on "top-to-bottom" approach. We are studying everything on this website apart from reading from internet and books.


Thanks. But my approach is NOT top-to-bottom but completely opposite ---my approach is "bottom to top". I ask activists NOT to approach for top nor I request them to work for top. I only request them to ask bottom (citizens) to force PM to sign RTI2 law. And once RTI2 law is signed, citizens will be asked to enact RTR etc laws. So the top only takes orders from bottom. Thus my approach is bottom-to-top approach only. The major difference is that my approach is based on giving INFORMATION to bottom about how bottom can empower themselves by laws like RTI2, RTR, MRCM etc. Whereas most political groups insists that voters should vote for them, and dont ask for any more direct powers.

Also Loksatta has not shown any inclination to support RTR at higher levels. They are supporting RTR only at Municipal levels, and still their proposal is undrafted. They are merely supporting "bring good people in politics" approach. They are also not keen on proposing DRAFTS of the laws they propose. So far, they have proposed ONLY one draft to reduce the corruption and that draft increases the power of judge and does nothing else. All smart guys in administration, courts take bribes via relatives/friends and never leave direct trail. So they never get prosecuted to begin with. All in all, JP seldom talks about "what drafts will reduce corruption in Supreme Court judges", "what drafts will reduce corruption in High Court judges" and so forth.

Quote:
Right now, solutions in terms of "Laws & Acts" are just the beginning of the work. It is an important approach, but we all know about "Dowry law" which prohibits asking for dowry - and we also know how much this law has found application and perhaps, this can convince us that over-reliance on either of "top-to-bottom" or "bottom-to-top" approaches do not yield good results.


Dowry law should be repealed. I already proposed it in chap-5 "GNs we demand to improve civil laws". The fact that dowry law is bad doesnt mean all laws or proposed laws are bad. Also, dowry-law doesnt depend on top-to-bottom approach. It was just a law Ministers made to extract quick bucks by taking crisis as a justification.

=====

Ashish wrote:
Gopal 2014 will be too late. Rahul is not mentioned/described about rocket science. Once you distribute the printed or soft copy within your members, rest depends upon them (your members) to accept RTI2, RTR or Recall, MRCM or Jury. It is not necessary that you will keep our name or contact details in documents. You can replace those with your details as well and distribute. I have seed your blog. I believe It doesn't focus on India's major 2 problem's solution, which are (1)Poverty (2)Corruption. I have found, in India we are only focusing on describing problem more and more, and less on solution. The solution only in terms of Laws & Acts. Thanks


True. The Right to Recall Party's model is not to win election, but to convert every party into RRP and thus ensure that only an RRP wins elections !! The action steps are

  • If you like RTI2, RTR, MRCM laws, present this law to every activist
  • The good activists will like this law, the bad ones will walk away. Good
  • Ask every good activist to convince his party leader to add RTI2, RTR and MRCM in his agenda
  • If leader agrees, that party becomes RRP
  • If leader disagrees, he will get exposed and good activist will leave that party

Thus every good party will become RRP and every bad party will get exposed. The bad party will not get good activists, and so they will implode.


Top
 Profile  
 
9
PostPosted: Sat Nov 20, 2010 10:35 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Nov 10, 2010 2:01 am
Posts: 4
I agree with you Rahul bhai. Your ideas are very solid to bring accountability into politics. The ideas are old, but no one came up with a detailed draft. You have done it. RTR should be implemented at every level with due consideration given to issues like avoiding false positives, etc.

ref: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Sarvodaya_Mission_Political_Vision/message/3

We are reading your ideas now. Our first work will be on corruption and your document is definitely a good material.

other issues discussed below:

Instant-runoff voting was what I saw during student elections at IIT Kanpur also. It is definitely very good: "IRV is considered mathematically superior to First Past The Post in single-person elections as it eliminates vote splitting, thereby reducing concerns about tactical voting and strategic nomination (Arrow's Impossibility Theorem)." as per wikipedia source.

Regarding your questions on we cannot know about someone's character fully in elections, I partly agree. But, it is not too difficult to perceive about someone's character, albeit not perfectly. After all, there must be some objective reasons why people considered Lincoln, Gandhi, Chanakya, etc as men of integrity even in their times. So, there is definitely some thing called character and it can be perceived by public highly (if not fully) accurately if all the information about a person is made public. In general, components of character like simple living, helping nature, caring attitude, lack of nepotism, administrative quality, etc can easily be assessed from the past background and cannot be so easily faked. Our problem is lack of sufficient informational awareness in the public. Once that awareness comes through more education and better laws on campaign finance, candidate's declaration of entire financial interests, pro-active media and civil society, I think, lots of political corruption will automatically go down. Most of the bad things are done either in dark or when the opposition to corruption is considered ineffective by the unscrupulous elements.

Regarding morals of USA and Indian citizens, I agree with your points. But, over-reliance on materialistic things for happiness always proves to be a folly, whether done by us or by Americans. So, spiritual work for refinement of consciousness through yoga and meditation is something which will always be a need of society. Our spiritual leaders could not succeed much in the past - could it be due to lack of fast and powerful communication means? probably. I am very hopeful that life-giving spirituality of India will spread in decades to come all across the world as now that defect is gone thanks to modern technological growth. Believe it or not, my group will play a non-trivial role in spiritual awakening also as we have done our home work quite well in last 8 years - yes, a very long efforts, but the final results are worth the efforts.

I will update you on new threads once we have our document ready on corruption. If we have some tricky points, I will discuss them on this forum in the intermediate stage of our work as well.

Regards,
Gopal


Top
 Profile  
 
10
PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 10:46 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Nov 17, 2010 5:13 am
Posts: 17
Gopalji,

Thanks & that's great that you have given chance to your members to read the article and think themselves.

Now if possible, you can publish YouTube presentation or e-mail the link to your members, prepared by BST (Bharat Swabhiman Trust)

Kindly update your facebook, orkut and other community blow this post, so if your any member have any query I will solve it.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 10 posts ] 

All times are UTC + 5:30 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group